GPG Outbrief 11: LED Downlight Lamps for CFL Fixtures

Good morning everyone my name isAndrea Silvestri and before we get started I'll be walking through somelogistics on today's webinar on LED lamp for CFL fixtures today's presentation isbased on a report by Pacific Northwest National Laboratory and we'll be hearingfrom the researchers shortly you can find the full report as a one pageoverview infographic and four page findings and links to additionalresources on our webpages at JC gov and I am hearing a little bit of backgroundnoise from one of the speakers so when not speaking please unmute your phonesthank you and today's webinar is one in a seriesof our webinars we're hosting them once a month on ThursdaysApril's webinar will be on electrochromic Windows PC windows arepart of a new class of building envelope technologies that respond dynamically totheir to conditions and GPG along with the Lawrence Berkeley NationalLaboratory has now conducted four evaluations of ICI Windows the two mostrecent assessments examined ec windows in facilities with glass curtain wallfacades and our April webinar while presenting we'll be presenting findingson those two most recent assessments as well as an assessment in a land port ofentry in May will feature the honeycombs solar thermal collector GPG and theNational Renewable Energy Laboratory evaluated this technology becausethere's a requirement that new construction and major renovations meet30% of hot water demand with solar energy provided it's cost effective overthe lifetime of the technology in June we'll discuss an early we'll bepresenting findings on an early GPG assessment of variable refrigerant flowvrf is now the dominant HVAC technology in both europe and japan though it hasuptake here in the u.

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at the time of the GPG evaluation GSA did not have anyfull implementations to assess so researchers concentrated onrecommendations on where best to deploy the technology since that time GSA nowhas completed multiple vrf implementations and the June webinarwill present the results from the Pacific Northwest National Laboratoriesreport along with the on-the-ground feedback from the recent GSAimplementations of VRS today's webinar and all GPG webinars are offer onecontinuing education learning credit through the American Institute ofArchitects to receive credit complete the post webinar survey you shouldreceive a short five question survey at the completion of the webinar if youdon't receive the survey please reach out to Michael Hobson and today'sbroadcast you'll be is set to listen only but you can submit questions hereas you've already been doing here in the and the right side of the chat box onthe right side of your screen and you don't need to wait until the end of thepresentations to submit questions in fact we encourage the submission ofquestions throughout the presentation and with that Michael Hobson the projectmanager for this for this assessment will introduce today's webinar thanksMichael Thank You Andre oh hello everyone and welcome next slide please our agenda today so in today's webinarKevin Powell will begin and give us a brief overview of GSA's proving groundprogram after this overview Eric Richman from the Department of Energy's PacificNorthwest National Laboratory well share details and results from ourdemonstration on LED lamps for CFL fixtures Eric's presentation will befollowed by feedback from Martino vini from GSA's Northwest region 10 and fromFrank Campania from GSA southwest region 7 both were regional project managersfor this study finally we'll end the webinar with an interactive Q&Asession and with that Kevin take it away well thank you very much Michael andnext slide please so first of all I want to thankeverybody for joining us on this on this webinar and in the next uh just you knowfew slides I want to give a 12 level overview of why we have at GSA thisemerging technologies program why do we have why do we why do we evaluate thesenext-generation technologies and so on and in some just you know so that we'reall clear about why in really kind of fiscally constrained times why are we wedoing this this activity that that some might think of as as kind ofdiscretionary and the truth is that GSA recognizes as do most commercial largecommercial building owners that adopting next-generation technologies isabsolutely critical to being competitive in in the marketplace and to having thekinds of facilities that are both efficient and effective withcontemporary workers the challenge is that there's a lot of innovation outthere we need to make sound investment decisions in those that actually candeliver real-world performance next slide the thing to understand is thatthere's a fair amount of investment that goes on and certainly the one we'regoing to talk about is no different than any others but there's all there's a lotof investment at the R&D level it's really coming up with product that canessentially solve real problems the the challenge is that when you haveinnovation in a very conservative I guess will be athe best way to put it environment like the world of buildings where things needto work for the long haul and in many cases not necessarily in this case butin many cases the investment in these technologies is actually rather highthere's a tendency to just simply do things as you have done them before andthat leads to what many will call the technology valley of death that is tosay there's an innovative product that is has had that R&D investment is readyto hit the marketplace but nobody is really certain that it's going todeliver in the real world and because of that uncertainty it it kind of as theysay dies on the vine the important thing to take away from why GSA has thisemerging technologies program is that by doing this activity of identifyingthings that actually work in the real world it really has enabled us to investin the most effective of those technologies and to date we've installedI guess nine across 200 buildings I think that's a little bit outdated Ithink it's more like 250 buildings at this point and at the time we put thisoff 7.

4 million dollars in annual savings that is certainly something tothink about next slide just as a top-level view of how did we select thisparticular LED technology well if they applied to a request for information andwe put that out every fall so every fall we put out this general request forinformation and to have targeted program areas in this case this was we wereinterested in lighting and then those technologies are scored by third partysubject matter experts we convened we select them factor the bath from whathas been submitted we then choose locations to pilot those you'll hearfrom region 7 and 10 where we we've piloted these we use National Labsto provide us credible third-party evaluations of how these do I will saywe typically go for what we would consider the acid test installation sowe're not trying to find the best place to try these things out we're activetrying we're finding the worst and most challenging places to try thesetechnologies out to make sure that if they work there they work everywhere andthen those that have broad potential for gsa we look to to actually driveadoption through a variety of approaches which we in the umbrella term for thatis pilot to portfolio for gsa and so with that I'm going to turn this over toEric Richman hi this is Eric good morning or goodafternoon whichever location you're in I with Soviet Northwest NationalLaboratory we're the ones that did the evaluation of this technology for forGSA and I want to talk a little bit about what we found what we looked atand recommendations going forward so next slide please the the idea here was to evaluate thisproduct category LED tail lights for CFL fixtures and this is something thatisn't new and but it hasn't been explored a lot because it's not themajority of lighting in a building but there are lots of down lights so thiswas something that needed to be looked at and this is just a screenshot of thereport there's a report you can get that gives a lot more detail next slide I kind of mentioned this process to thatGSA goes to identify products or product types that they want to evaluate andthere's a clear savings opportunity here for these down lights of approaching sixgigawatt hour per year with an estimated 95, 000 CFL based down lights throughoutthe system in many buildings so there's clearly a need for this and so this iswhy we went with this evaluation next slide sothe basic product we looked at and this particular product there are otherversions of it but at the time we looked at it this was one of the it was it wasrather unique it came in two different versions a stripped down light and avertical and a horizontal orientation because some down light fixtures haveCFLs that are aimed directly down and some have them that are aimed sidewaysso this is just kind of a format of what the product looked like as you can seeit has the pin format so that it's directly plug pluggable into an existingdownline CFL canline next slide these are the three facilities that we did theevaluation at again we wanted to look at different facilities we don't want tolook at just one we wanted to get a variety of situations and formats andand down my can types etc so we looked at a GSA headquarters in Auburn here inthe state of Washington Federal Building in Dallas and a veteran's admin Centerin Philadelphia next slide so this is a couple of shots of the type of of downlight structures that we were dealing with as I mentioned the product team andI vertical and horizontal format and Auburn we saw the typicalvertical format of the lamp sticking straight down and in Dallas andPhiladelphia we saw the other format of the horizontal where there are two lampsin each fixture this product came in both formats and we were able toevaluate both products in in different situations next slide so this isbasically the format we of course looked at the energy use from the two differentproducts we were able to determine that close enough by looking at the wattagecomplete wattage that is wattage of the lamp driven on a ballast and we wedetermine what those two numbers were from the manufacturers data use that forthe energy evaluation of course utility rates at each site what wewanted to also make sure is that this product will perform sufficiently or thesame as the existing product that's kind of the goal now there will always beprojects where maybe a site needs a little more light underneath these canlight installations or less light and of course that will need to be accommodatedon a case-by-case basis but in this case we wanted to find a product that wasmeant to provide the same amount of light so if you were happy with yourlight which is most of the time you just want to save some energy this is an easyway to do it so again we want to do a value 8 make sure the product wasperforming adequately so we set up a grid and on the right hand side you cansee their little sticky notes on the floor and on the wall and we wanted toevaluate both floor illuminance and of all luminance in some cover a lot ofcases with down lights they're in hallways a lot of times or they're nearan edge of a facility and we wanted to make sure that this product wouldreproduce the same amount of light both on the floor and on the wall LEDs as aas a technology tend to be directional so inside of a can fixture they wouldtend to illuminate more down than they would to the side of a typical CFL lampso we wanted to make sure that we weren't creating an unwanted cave lookso here a couple of photographs of the grid we set up to the right is a reallyscratchy sketch here of the of the of the grid itself showing it on the wallon the floor and then a raw accounting of the measurements taking tick in bothvertical and horizontal for the existing situation and in this case the linearoutput I have to go to the next slide this is an important one to look at forrepresenting what the comparison is like so the blue dots and lines are theexisting previous CFL and then the orange dots and lines are of the LEDthat was that was put in and you can see that across the various sites Auburndining Dallas had a law being a hallway inPhiladelphia and a daycare for the horizontal light levels the left-handchart you can see there's some variance and of course that makes sense becausethese are different space types you're gonna light a dining area different thana lobbying a hallway etc the important thing to note is that for the most parta little bit of an exception in in the lobby the light levels determined forboth the CFL and the LED are very close to each other the LED is slightly higherwhich is good lamps all you degrade over time and sothis starts it a little bit higher and if you look at the averages the linesdrawn across for the LED it's you know 16 Lux the CFL Jordan 78 this is on thefloor surface and they're very similar LED is a little bit higher and this isgood so it performs well if you look at the vertical light levels same kind ofsituation they're fairly close to each other in it's a little bit mixed in thatsometimes the LED didn't produce quite as much light on the wall this couldeasily have something to do with where the grid was positioned because as youcall from the previous slide in those pictures there there's this kind ofarchway structure on the wall which is a product of having can lights dispersedalong down the hallway so depending on what the distribution was like for theLED it may have been slightly different from the CFL and so the spot we chose tomeasure we would produce a different result but again in general the valuesare very close to each other and they show us that the new LED product isproviding sufficient light or at least comfortable to what they had before sonext slide so when we combine this with the energy and the utility rate etc wefound there was of course the the lamps themselves had the capability of a 40 to50 cent 50% energy savings which turned out to be for typical utility rate sixdollars and 37 cents a year over a typical CFL and this turned out to be alittle bit less than three year payback which isgenerally good most sites are going to be happy with that kind of a paybacknext slide so we want to look at now that we kind of know how this works andunderstanding a little bit more about how this product operates we want toprovide some options or some recommendations on what to do with themnow this product which I neglected to mention the beauty of it is that itoperates on an existing CFL ballast so you can pop out a CFL lamp pop in thisLED replacement and it will run on that ballast that's the beauty of it there'sno electrical wiring required you just have to buy the lamp now the caveat isthat LED products while they're great they need to be chosen such that theywill work on the existing ballasts these products are developed so that they willwork on a CFL ballast but that doesn't mean they'll work on necessarily everyCFL ballast because a CFL ballasts are slightly different in terms of theirelectronics so that's the one big caveat ease and want to make sure that it workson on your particular ballast so if we look at this chart we've tried toidentify where these three options are are the best to apply one is to do thisreplacement that we're talking about pull out the CFL have put in an LEDanother one is to install a retrofit kit which will be a pain an LED retrofit kitwhich replaces the CFL guts the CFL lamp in the CFL ballasts andreplaces it with an LED lamp and an LED driver and the third option is toinstall a brand new fixture so if we look back on on replacing the lamp ifyou're a CFL ballast is verified to work with the LED replacement lamp accordingto manufacturer by some testing that's great even replace the lamp the othercaveat is that typically this kind of replacement because you're dealing withthe CFL ballasts will not necessarily be able to be controllednow some CFL ballasts will have some controllability but most of them all soif you need control this may not be your option of course this is the cheapestoption and it's a payback of less than three years the lowest cost now ifeither those don't work in other words if the lamp is not compatible with theCFL ballast or not all of them that you have and if you and/or if you want somekind of control that the CFL ballast doesn't support then your next bestoption might be a retrofit kit it's going to have a higher payback but it'llstill be less expensive than a new fixture if you're in a new constructionsituation you probably want a new fixture anyway if you're going to beinvolved with any integrated advanced controls which are becoming popular inthese days then you may also want to simply go with a new fixtureagain slightly higher pay back but it'll perform better for you so this is kindof an easy chart to help you determine where you may or may not be able to usethis simpler plug-in option next slide please so a few other considerations beyondwhat that chart provided you need to verify the little function on all typesof ballasts you may have a facility that's got multiple can lights in it andsome of them are a certain type of product ballast manufacturer and othersare a different one you won't want to just pull one out and assume the rest ofthem are that way you'll want to find some way to do an accounting and makesure that this product could work on all about it and again if it's if it'simpracticable to verify everything or you know that there's some that won'twork then you may want to consider the read fit option and when you do if youdo consider a retrofit option you need to make sure to identify how low thelamp is going to sit because that will affect how much the the light isdistributed if the LED LED lamp sits up very high inthe can it won't distribute I distribute my agreement to the side if it sitsreally low in the can and almost outside of the can then you may have potentialglare problems as you're walking through that area so something to be careful upnext slide please a few other tidbits to keep track of ifyou have a space that used is used infrequently or you're looking to have amajor remodel in the future you may not want to do that retrofitright away this this this is true for any kind of a retrofit situation youwant to look at how much longer you're going to use that space in its currentconditioning in its current situation light output it's true what this saidthat the LED lamps because they are directional can be in a situation wherethey only need seventy percent of what a typical CFL produces the the lamps thatwe tested were designed with that in mind and so they were designed tospecifically replace a certain wattage CFL lamp you'll want to verify this withmanufacturers when you go to pick a product and color temperature is talkedabout a lot you can get CFL lamps and LED lamps in basically any colortemperature you want so if you're happy with what you have now with the CFL youmight want to figure out what color temperature that is cool light to warmlight and identify the same color temperature if you want to go withsomething different then identify where you want to be you can find all kinds ofcolor chart ranges it'll tell you whether you want something that's warmor something that's cool next slide so in terms of deployment the bottom linehere is that it is a great opportunity to do a very inexpensive replacement toget a lot longer life out of your tan lights but there are caveats it can beas simple as changing the light bulb but as we've mentioned you want to make surethat it will work on that CFL ballast and then you're good and then you'regoing to be able to keep that space for quite a while and I believe that thattakes care of what I was going to present today and I'll turn it over toMarty novena who wants to talk about his experience and feedback of having thisdone in a facility he was responsible for money or good afternoon everyonebusiness model of the energy program managersten and ten go to the next 19th we actually tested a number of these lampsAmericans at our site and like anything mentioned one of the Bears first andforemost thing that you should do is make sure that your ballot is compatiblewith the amount that you're going to purchase that's very important becausethis technology doesn't work with magnetic ballasts or certain otherelectronic ballasts again like I mentioned the height of themap is also very important we want to do a little homework to see what you haveinside your and can light and match the new LED bulb to exactly what you've gotso that your outcome will be basically the same as what you already have interms of land color temperature and distribution and like outside the dayand light fixture we received about a hundred of these and like light bulbsfrom gpb's from the GPG program and we liked them so much that we went aheadand bought something like 600 different 600 of them and as part of it we testeda lot of different technologies out of the particular manufacturer we ended uptesting a short bald and a long ball in similar type can lights and were kind ofsurprised at how different they spread lifespan was out of each each one ofthem and that's why I emphasized that he wanted a little bit of homework to makesure that what are you getting out of this technology matches what you alreadyhave in your can lights we also bought some HID fixtures hearing ovens we havea large site we have a lot of exterior light fixtures with court man so thatmeans we're able to actually modify when and he's very economically using thesame technology out of the same manufacturer the results were very verysuccessful we were able to replace all of our courts lamps with LED veryefficiently and basically we bought our lightbulbs without the 863 funds wehanded it over to our one in contractor and then one in contractor what we'reinstalling today on in ours we will be very economical installation and theenemy savings definitely talked for itselfnext slices there are a few loopholes to look out for number one is maintenancethe existing ballast will remain inside the can inside the light fixture so it'sthe ballast failed you not look for the same ballast to make the light fixtureoperational again in all the installations that we had I would sayabout 600 million amps you only have one failure which turns out to be theballast we're able to replace the ballast and get the light fixtureoperational again the earlier loophole to look out for is utility in thesentence we are usually the company and in this area does involve incentivizethis type of a retrofit simply because it's very easy to take out the newneural net and put in the new lamp or the compact fluorescent lamp andbasically wipe out your energy savings so for that purpose unknown and theydon't our utility don't incentivize this kind of an effect as a result of thistest I believe in GPD program we need actually identified other retrofitoptions at our border station to modify a lot of our outdoor lightingwith LED and in majority of those installations we were able to bypass theballast and basically install a LED bulb that basically is the same thing but wasreceiving high voltage 217 voltage for directly to the editing part I believethis vid for me on both passing on single site in region 7 forimplementation good morning everybody from Fort Worth next slide please yeah I pretty much had the sameexperience Marty did our only difference was ours was a horizontal applicationversus vertical we had two lamps versus one so I would just want to add a fewthings and I think Eric may have already touched on this I think it's always agood practice to interview the OEM or the facility maintenance crew to seewhat kind of existing experience they were already having with failures youdon't want to do this plug-and-play application where you have high ballastsfailures you should consider doing the retrofit as Eric alluded to earlier andgood rule of thumb is you know if they tell you it's been like 25 percent orhigher I think you know you don't want to do this particular solution and alsowhile we were doing the project we found that it was always a good practice toallow the ballasts to cool down 10 or 15 minutes we found when we didn't do thatwe had some latency issues with the startup of the LEDs themselves and Ithink a lot of that has to do is because these ballasts are running you know 15hours a day or so so typically they're being they were done after hours so itwas always good good practice to let them cool down next slide please we did have one well we had severallamps that had failed due to a manufacturer defecthowever Lu narrow was the one who pointed that out to us we had one or twofailures and didn't think much of it but they actually brought it to ourattention and they were very quick to send us another batch of lamps and thatthat that same batch is now in place and probably been two years since we had todo that real amp and had no issues and matter of fact unlike Marty I've we'vehad no failures in our ballasts since doing this retrofit we do have a projectthat's upcoming in the same building the Capitol building in downtown Dallaswhere we will be doing the remainder of the can lights in the billing whichamounts to about 600 fixtures next slide please and with that I wanted to mention ourincentives that package that we get from our local utility that here's a mapshowing the encore sphere of influence and we were getting some ballparkfigures from them just for the purposes of this meeting today so we're gonna getreplaced 1226 watt CFL 213 was LEDs and so we can anticipate fall Park about afour thousand two hundred dollar incentive next slide that's it for meI'll turn it back over to you thank you Frankand thank you everyone's for your presentation we are ready for thequestion-and-answer segment and we want to thank all of those that have beenentering questions meeting space window you have more please go ahead and dothat while you've been providing some of your questions and concerns we've beenhere in the background finding answers so I'm gonna go down the list of some ofthe question that have come up and will facilitate adiscussion on those if needed if anyone has anything to comment on any of thesequestions please don't hesitate to add in under are you releasing the mute orare we gonna do it a little bit differently no you're gonna well do isyou've want to ask the questions and then the presenters can answer them andI know we also have someone from llanera James like you've been answering a lotof the questions if you want to unmute your line and answer some of thesequestions as well that would be great okay well we'll start with the firstquestion here on the list the question of if the current balanced in the sixyear can Nessus needed or necessary and are the weight of the lamps andcompliance with the GSA to 100 and the games of you are availablewelcome to answer down yes and you can call me Jim just so I don't get confusedbecause my my son's name is James as well so oh okay so yes the ballast forthis specific lamp we're discussing today is required these are these areplug and play with the existing balancers for ease of use that's thegoal in regards to the regulation question I am NOT a hundred percent sureabout the GSA requirement but I do know it meets it actually exceeds by abouttwenty five x the requirement for a ul for weight right and I'd I believe thatwe we looked at that when we did the the demonstration for the P 100 requirementand we did not find any concerns there so I would say that the answer is thatthey are in compliance with P 109 next question here we're talking about P oLED lamps and how the technology different than the P o LED lamps Jamesare you able to answer that so I think generally the question the way I read itwas there's a lot more on the market and there were in 2016 in 2016 I would saythere's probably only one or two maybe three on the marketwith this product loon era actually invented this in 2013 and since then theChinese have fully engaged this market so there are other available on themarket today okay there's a question that came up about compliance are beingcompatible with CFL ballast I know that that question came out early and we didhave a lot of discussion about that throughout the presentation today so youknow like like James said it's a plug and play technology their ballast drivenif they're incompatible as Marty stated that if there's magnet magnetic ballaststhat they are incompatible then I read the recommendation is a retrofit kit orfun fixture under the next question of the table public temperatures the Kelvintemperatures of the way where they match we get a best in these demonstrations tomatch exactly the temperature color of the down lights I believe the range thatwe were trying to stay within was 2700 to 4, 100 most of those temperatures werein the 35 to 37 hundred range by American compliance I the BAArequirements are part of G GPG requirements we do require that theseproducts are do follow the BA in and that I believe in it do you fill us inon your location and and whether or not or if you can confirm that for us so theway I understand this today there is not any of these products actually made inthe United States so I believe they would fall under a waiver for for thiscategory today it was not a single manufacturer that produces them in theUnited States we do design and all the engineering in Silicon Valley inCalifornia so I don't I don't have a solid answer aside from that right now okay we'll move onwell look we'll look into that I'm 100% certain that me we wouldn't be able tohave a demonstration with you unless you were baa compliant but no thank you forthat question next question here can you place a cover over these cans clearfrost it cannot cover some type of screen what are the limitations on thecover so the the lamps are rated for fully enclosed fixtures whether that'sover a cam light or if they're in a wall sconce on a wall that's fully enclosedthey're rated fully for that heat load to be inside that enclosed fixture lampsthemselves also have a frosted lens over them so you have no glare issues withthe LEDs they're designed specifically with that nice look to them maybe Jamesa couple more questions are the bull do the bulbs come and bypass option theanswer from James here I'm seeing let's say I'll save you some breath they'reour new universal mount bypass obviously oval works with both horizontal andvertical next question about the flicker rate is that an issue as we heard fromfrom our project managers there wasn't an issue with flicker it should not bean issue as long as the ballasts start being compatible it's question from fromMichael one issue that must be evaluated is that for LEDs the heat output at isat the base of the lamp not the lamp itself and that's an existing yeah goahead and this is Erik I can address that about that key issue it's very truethat heat can be a potential problem with LEDs because the the waste heat isnot radiated like it is for an incandescent lamp or parsley for CFL allthat heat stays there at the base of the lamp so if you have an enclosed fixturethat could potentially be a problem but as Jim already noted this particularproduct is rated for an enclosed fixture they do tests with it in an enclosedfixture to make sure it'll withstand the heat and that has to do with theelectronic architecture and heat sinks etc so what you want to do iswhen you go to buy a product you want to make sure that it's rated for anenclosed fixture they will typically say on the side of the box not rated forenclosed fixtures or or that they are rated so buyer beware you need to pickthe right product make sure that it is rated for any closed fixtures thank yournext question is the design lights consortium are they approved from thatand the answer from James is yes with the caveat James if you can get into thedetail of that of the bypass the ballast option yes so the the DLC for 4-pinspecifically they actually don't approve any to pin lamps which the two pins arewhat work on the magnetic ballasts so those are available but TLC does notcover two pins or magnetic ballasts the four pins are approved on the dlc listas long as the lamps themselves are using an existing ballast if you'rebypassing the ballast those lamps don't have any category within dlc thank youJames next question are these leds dimmable for power shedding applicationJames I'll hand that over to you again yes so the lamps themselves are dimmableon certain dimming ballasts again it all goes back to that ballast compatibilitywe have a pretty extensive list of those and that's where I said just reach outto us with your actual ballasts that you guys have in place and we should be ableto address that directly great thank you another question about the 22 277 voltsthe question about safety concerns on bypassing ballots that have 277 voltsdirectly available for possible 277 both direct contact yes so the one thing I'llnote here is that although the ballasts themselves don't limit the actualvoltage under 277 now they do limit the amperage but you can still have up to600 volts coming out of that ballast into that socket so in general justtouching sockets would be a safety hazard in generalul has confirmed and reconfirmed many times that the the bypass the balanceoptions are are safe it's just again following the actual instructions to youall code thank you James next question about warranties what arethe warranties that come with this the answer from James is a full five-yearwarranty on the luminaire lamps with t8 LEDs they come with a seven-yearwarranty tip what is the typical life span for the LEDs James answers 50, 000hours white giant lifespan as you probably see in most LEDs comment hereabout the P 100 it does not allow for retrofits where 277 is directlyavailable and then the response from from Jeff six point three point twopoint two of the P 100 calls out a list of requirements for LED lamp retrofitsthese are there to assist in ensuring that the lamps will actually perform asneeded not much of it not a clear answer on that and that's something that we canlook into and follow in a follow up on it's regarding some of the questions onthe P 100 here and I think that's about itI don't have an answer to the average cost per lamp that's something that wehad in the report Eric yes there is something in there and I was justlooking for labor rates which came from our s mean so the information is in thein the full report a lot more detail in there yeah and a lot of detail in aduring the car sorry say I can add the on the average cost it's come downpretty dramatically since the to set 2016 report so that's something else youcan reach out to us or to local suppliers for yes for price forunderstanding cost I believe that contacting llaneradirectly is the best Avenue since this report is over two years old and thosenumbers will definitely change I don't have any other questions hereand hand it back over to you Andre oh great thank you Michael and I think atthe time of the report that a cost of the lamps was $22 per unit so that waswhat the payback was based on on that craft and the savings that werecalculated at the average rate so this is per lamp was six dollars and 37 centsa year so that makes it an easy way to calculate the costs and savings sothanks for those questions as we mentioned at the conclusion of today'swebinar you all receive a short five question survey and completing thatsurvey will should you can request continuing education credits if youdon't receive the survey please reach out Michael Hobson and thank you all forbeing here this is truly one of the simplest technologies we've evaluated todate so I think it's fitting that it's a shorter where we're completing this in arecord time the next webinars that are coming up are more complex technologiesand we hope you can attend thanks Kevin and I guess the last word sort of thingbut you know first I want to thank everybody for attending and and it'salways great to be able to wrap one of these quickly as Andrea just said thisis really literally one of the simplest technologies that we tested and ourprogram looks at things that are both extraordinarily complicated andsometimes extremely high dollar value and sometimes relatively simple andrelatively low dollar value what we would say about something like thisparticular one when we think about broad deployment is that this is somethingthat should be essentially a you know this this product or something similarto it should be a no-brainer really it's something that should justbe the way we do business because again it I think it was a question initiallyhow can there possibly be six hundred thousand dollars of annual savings fromsomething as simple as just swapping out these these lamps and the answer isbecause when you look across the portfolio even if this is essentiallyrelatively a niche thing that is to say down lights or not I'll be generallylight office space there's a lot of down lights and this is something that againI think it's just easy quick payback let's just really achieve a great dealof savings so do you want to thank everybody though who has participated inthis colloquy that's the takeaway that you have from it Thanksgiving.

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